“It’s important that we be honest and direct, but we do so with kindness and graciousness.” ~Nancy van Dyken
Nancy is a licensed psychologist and licensed independent clinical social worker who has been practicing for nearly 35 years now. She specializes in working in relationship issues, specifically abusive dynamics. She wrote Everyday Narcissism for just about everybody, as the concerns within affect everyone. She began talking about narcissism in relationship with co-dependency, and as time went on, she discovered the patterns of everyday narcissism as she investigated the matter; and as she didn’t want to keep teaching the same thing over and over again to her clients, she decided to write the book.
Narcissism, according to Nancy, is a spectrum. The “personality disorder” type of narcissism is on one end and describes people who are self-centered, need to be right, and don’t accept disagreement. “Everyday narcissism” is on the other end of the spectrum, with people being pleasers, doing things to be liked and are fearful of rejection.
The five core beliefs that Nancy notes we have been taught from a very young age - beliefs that drive emotions, thoughts and behavior throughout one’s life are:
I am responsible for, and have the power to control, how other people feel and behave.
It’s your responsibility to take care of how I feel and how I behave.
Your needs are more important than mine.
Rules are more important than I am.
I’ve got to follow all these myths, or I’m not likeable.
Nancy notes that these five beliefs are reinforced daily, and these are so intrusive that we aren’t even aware of their influence these lies have in our lives. These lies are what Nancy refers to as “hazy trauma,” being akin to continuous paper cuts that are inflicted upon a person over time, rather than the kind of major trauma inflicted by such things as sexual abuse. Nancy gave two examples of a subject named “Nancy” who is influenced, while still a child, by some of these myths, which resulted in role reversal, where the child “Nancy” becomes the parent in the social role. She points out the phrase, “I’m so disappointed in you,” when told to a child, being an example of shaming, which plays to everyday narcissism.
Nancy notes that all parents are doing the best they can, and that they are merely passing on the methods they learned and experienced. She notes that narcissism is created from being injured, and how one relates to narcissism - be it following these five beliefs or recognizing this and healing from them - will determine whether or not its effect on one’s life is negative or positive. Nancy also gave some examples about how situations were dealt with in a manner different from how these would be dealt in a way that encourages everyday narcissism - one about a math teacher who had read her book, and another about an example in her own life when she spoke with her own daughter.
Nancy points out that teaching children these five myths, or lies, teaches these children not to respect themselves. As a concrete example, she notes that these five myths drive home to women and girls that their body doesn’t belong to them, which is why they don’t speak up about being sexually harassed. Nancy also gave the example of abusive relationships where the second myth is used to justify the abuse, and she notes that, when these myths and lies are given up, freedom and joy are acquired. She notes that accepting these myths will most likely be best addressed by reading her book, but she believes that narcissism is a state of wounding, rather than it making people awful.
Nancy notes that people have learned not to trust themselves by buying into the five myths, and that we must trust our own inner wisdom to tell us what does and doesn’t work for us. She also wants people to know that they are likeable and loveable as they are, and don’t need to please everyone.
“Stop thinking that you’re not enough.”~Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Ramani has had a lot of experience with narcissists, either through her patients or through her own experience, and this is what enabled her to write the book about having a relationship with a narcissist and giving a strategy for people to deal with them. According to her, a narcissist is a person who lacks empathy and is very entitled, grandiose, arrogant, doesn’t care about others’ feelings and always puts themselves first. She notes that this is more and more common with social media to enable them to get validation.
The book outlines thirty characteristics to identify a narcissist, with one of these being that a narcissist would tell another everything about themselves in detail but who wouldn’t listen if that other person talks about themselves to a narcissist, and another example being that of a hair-trigger temper when relating to others, such as having a temper tantrum when they deal with service personnel and don’t get what they want. That said, narcissists are very seductive and charming and can get into relationships easily.
Although the book focuses on narcissism in relationships, Ramani also mentioned, during the interview, that narcissism also is around in other spheres of life, such as in work, with a narcissistic boss. One example that she gave of a situation with a narcissistic boss is that everything one says at work is either ignored or denied, which ties up with the phenomenon called “gaslighting,” wherein one’s experience is denied, resulting in a loss of control, fear and depression. To people who have narcissistic bosses, Ramani advises getting to know what one’s job function is and then documenting all of the things that happen. She also decries that present HR procedures actually enable a narcissist rather than their victim, as narcissists have no hesitation making a lot of legal noise, whereas their victims are unlikely to.
Where the reaction to the book is concerned, psychologists who have worked with narcissists have remarked that the book is spot on, while the narcissists who have reviewed the book have hated it. Writing the book was difficult for Ramani because of her immersion in the difficult topic, and she remarked that doing so was like getting into a relationship with a narcissist, which left her psychologically exhausted. Writing the book also enabled her to to create a far greater state of grace and forgiveness for herself.
Where the release of her book is concerned, and compared to that of her previous book, Ramani is focusing more on marketing it through social media, remarking that grassroots is everything, and is thus working to market the book “from the bottom up,” rather than “top down.” She’s looking forward to this as this is a cause she is passionate about, as well as the sparring that will inevitably take place. She remarked that the topic is enormous and that this is applicable in more areas than just intimate relationships, and that there is looking forward to its international development.
Ramani’s advice for someone who is presently in a relationship with a narcissist is to stop thinking that one is not enough. This is particularly applicable to women, who are trained to believe that, if they take care of others, everything will be fine. She notes that, if a person went to a bank that just kept on taking that person’s money without giving it back, that person would no longer be a customer of that bank. She notes that, in relationships, people should always get something back, and that being in a relationship with a narcissist is like being in a relationship with a bank that gives nothing back.
Ramani wants to open a national conversation about narcissism, particularly with today’s children, who are growing up in an environment where technology enables narcissism. She is also working with others to create a series of retreats where people who have been damaged by being in a relationship with a narcissist can get back on their feet. She’s presently considering writing a book, with a colleague, on how popular media fuels such relationship myths such as “beauty and the beast,” where the “beast” becomes a “beauty” through the loving efforts of someone, and is also considering other topics, such as the psychology of women traveling alone.
Ramani loves to travel, as just going to another place “reboots” her, and she dislikes wasting time with people who don’t listen or who aren’t engaged, as she values her time with others, as well as making others do something they don’t want to do.
